Clearin

Oct 14 2012, 05:24 PM

They'd become as strong as Toriyama wanted them. He could honestly make them stronger than Super Buu if he felt like it, there's no real consistency in gains in DB/Z, Goku trained for 7 years and barley became stronger than SSj2 Kid Gohan (Rage boost or not that's still a pretty small gain for 7 years) while Gotenks in about 1 week surpassed his old Super Saiyan self.

Super Gohan

Oct 14 2012, 06:05 PM

Clearin

Oct 14 2012, 05:24 PM

They'd become as strong as Toriyama wanted them. He could honestly make them stronger than Super Buu if he felt like it, there's no real consistency in gains in DB/Z, Goku trained for 7 years and barley became stronger than SSj2 Kid Gohan (Rage boost or not that's still a pretty small gain for 7 years) while Gotenks in about 1 week surpassed his old Super Saiyan self.

It's well established that the Saiyan hybrids possessed greater potential, so power would come more naturally for them. You cannot simply treat everyone as being equal. Especially in Gotenks' case, on account of being born from two Saiyan hybrids with extraordinary potential, therefore their fusion should carry an even more stupendous capacity, hence why he could achieve SSJ3 in only one week and half a day or so.

Humans weren't evidenced as being endowed with great potential in comparison to other races. Frankly, I wouldn't think they'd be able to last one year in the RoSaT. Considering Kid Goku wasn't able to, where his Saiyan body is tougher and could withstand a lot more stress than a human's could. They'd be doing more damage to themselves than actually making gains by using the room, in my opinion. Krillin, Chaozu and Yamcha wouldn't last very long in there. Although Tenshinhan is shown to be different from other humans, which the Daizenshuu could surely attest to with his Alien heritage. He possibly could last a year in the room, but even so, his gains wouldn't be considered very significant.

lunar2

Oct 14 2012, 06:23 PM

except that saiyans with the same pl as a human are not shown to be tougher than said human. the only character in dragonball noted specifically for being "tough" is recoome, who is neither saiyan nor human, although he is definitely from another related race.

kid goku lasted a month before the environment got to him. kid goku was

1. alone.

2. a child.

3. weak. his pl at this time was likely in the mid 100s.

saiyan saga tien would do better than that, since he's

1. an enlightened being, so he's spent long periods of time isolated in meditation already.

2. an adult

3. more powerful. his resting power at the beginning of the saiyan saga was, iirc, 250.

@dormant ability. actually, humans and hybrids are shown to have the greatest amount of dormant ability. saiyans (and hybrids) just have an easier time accessing their dormant ability because they have a built in potential release mechanism.

Super Gohan

Oct 14 2012, 07:59 PM

lunar2

Oct 14 2012, 06:23 PM

except that saiyans with the same pl as a human are not shown to be tougher than said human. the only character in dragonball noted specifically for being "tough" is recoome, who is neither saiyan nor human, although he is definitely from another related race.

kid goku lasted a month before the environment got to him. kid goku was

1. alone.

2. a child.

3. weak. his pl at this time was likely in the mid 100s.

saiyan saga tien would do better than that, since he's

1. an enlightened being, so he's spent long periods of time isolated in meditation already.

2. an adult

3. more powerful. his resting power at the beginning of the saiyan saga was, iirc, 250.

@dormant ability. actually, humans and hybrids are shown to have the greatest amount of dormant ability. saiyans (and hybrids) just have an easier time accessing their dormant ability because they have a built in potential release mechanism.

Saiyans hold exceptional recovery ability which can compensate for the degree of stress they'd subject their bodies to; humans are not built the same way. If they too heavily stress their bodies for prolonged periods of time without ample recovery, they'll reach a point where their body stops getting stronger, and instead starts to break down.

Guru expressed humans from Earth as not possessing great dormant power. The Daizenshuu also simply suggests that the higher one's dormant power, the easier it is to come out.

lunar2

Oct 14 2012, 08:23 PM

what? saiyan do not possess exceptional anything. they do not heal faster, nor do they heal more effectively. the only healing trait they have is the zenkai, which only triggers in response to near death injuries.

unless a saiyan is training themselves to the point of organ failure, and then using some kind of accelerated healing, they won't get any more benefit from a particular training method than a human.

@ dormant ability.

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P4.6, P5.1-4, P6.1-2
Context: Great Elder draws out Kuririn’s hidden power.
Great Elder: “By the way, despite being an Earthling, you have outstanding power…But it’s a shame that you have power still dormant…”
Kuririn: “Th-that can’t be…! I don’t have that sort of power or nothin’…! I’ve trained pretty harshly…I think even now I’ve already about surpassed my limits…[*the Great Elder draws his power out*] Aw…awawa…! Po…power…power…! Ehyaah! I’m bursting with power! Amazing! Unbelievable, I feel as if I’ve come back to life!”

Guru isn't referring to earthlings' dormant ability, he's referring to the fact that earthlings generally don't get very strong.

krillin is also the only earthling to get his potential released in the series.

he and gohan had the same base power before the potential release.

Chapter: 248 (DBZ 54), P12.2-5
Zarbon: “Lord Freeza… Concerning the reconnaissance we sent out earlier… It appears we’re facing more than ordinary beings. Their battle power momentarily rose again, and after defeating our scouts, their reading disappeared once more…”
Freeza: “I see. That is odd. It does not sound like Vegeta…”
Zarbon: “The reading is quite different from Vegeta’s. Their battle powers were both about 1,500.”
Freeza: “1,500…It won’t matter much if we just leave them alone, but their attitude doesn’t look so good. Wipe them out the next time you find them.”

and immediately after the potential release.


Chapter: 274 (DBZ 80), P8.4
Jheese: “This is unexpected. Those little squirts' battle powers surpassed 10,000."


it's not until after gohan gets a zenkai from having his neck broken that he pulls ahead of krillin


Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P9.1-5
Vegeta: “We can win! If the 3 of us fight together, we’ll be able to win somehow or another! [ ] It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed…These two’s battle power is steadily rising…The squirt in particular hides so much inner strength that he doesn’t even know it himself…”


TL;DR krillin had as much dormant ability as gohan during the frieza arc.

also, we need that daiz reference you talked about, because i've never heard of it.

Herms Strength Checker

 

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P13.3
Context: after waking up early and killing Appule (ha!)
Vegeta: “Looks like you underestimated my powers of recovery!”

Herms Strength Checker

 

Chapter: 271 (DBZ 77), P7.4
Context: the Great Elder has his hand on Gohan’s head, sensing his hidden power.
Great Elder: “This is incredible… You have tremendous latent power… You are not an Earthling, are you…?”

Daizenshuu 2 "Growing Up"

 

That Gohan was able to reach this stage earlier than Goku proves how high his dormant power is.

Super Gohan

Oct 14 2012, 09:07 PM

lunar2

Oct 14 2012, 08:23 PM

what? saiyan do not possess exceptional anything. they do not heal faster, nor do they heal more effectively. the only healing trait they have is the zenkai, which only triggers in response to near death injuries.

unless a saiyan is training themselves to the point of organ failure, and then using some kind of accelerated healing, they won't get any more benefit from a particular training method than a human.

@ dormant ability.

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P4.6, P5.1-4, P6.1-2
Context: Great Elder draws out Kuririn’s hidden power.
Great Elder: “By the way, despite being an Earthling, you have outstanding power…But it’s a shame that you have power still dormant…”
Kuririn: “Th-that can’t be…! I don’t have that sort of power or nothin’…! I’ve trained pretty harshly…I think even now I’ve already about surpassed my limits…[*the Great Elder draws his power out*] Aw…awawa…! Po…power…power…! Ehyaah! I’m bursting with power! Amazing! Unbelievable, I feel as if I’ve come back to life!”

Guru isn't referring to earthlings' dormant ability, he's referring to the fact that earthlings generally don't get very strong.

krillin is also the only earthling to get his potential released in the series.

he and gohan had the same base power before the potential release.

Chapter: 248 (DBZ 54), P12.2-5
Zarbon: “Lord Freeza… Concerning the reconnaissance we sent out earlier… It appears we’re facing more than ordinary beings. Their battle power momentarily rose again, and after defeating our scouts, their reading disappeared once more…”
Freeza: “I see. That is odd. It does not sound like Vegeta…”
Zarbon: “The reading is quite different from Vegeta’s. Their battle powers were both about 1,500.”
Freeza: “1,500…It won’t matter much if we just leave them alone, but their attitude doesn’t look so good. Wipe them out the next time you find them.”

and immediately after the potential release.


Chapter: 274 (DBZ 80), P8.4
Jheese: “This is unexpected. Those little squirts' battle powers surpassed 10,000."


it's not until after gohan gets a zenkai from having his neck broken that he pulls ahead of krillin


Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P9.1-5
Vegeta: “We can win! If the 3 of us fight together, we’ll be able to win somehow or another! [ ] It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed…These two’s battle power is steadily rising…The squirt in particular hides so much inner strength that he doesn’t even know it himself…”


TL;DR krillin had as much dormant ability as gohan during the frieza arc.

also, we need that daiz reference you talked about, because i've never heard of it.

Herms Strength Checker

 

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P13.3
Context: after waking up early and killing Appule (ha!)
Vegeta: “Looks like you underestimated my powers of recovery!”

We also see Goku recover minutes after enduring Piccolo Daimao's attack which stopped his heart. I can see a clear difference between a body inherently built for battle, and one that's not.

When Guru is about to release Gohan's dormant power he questions his heritage as an Earthling based on how large it was, despite already being familiar with an Earthling owning exceptional power not too long earlier. So he states this even with Earthling prodigies particularly in mind:

Herms Strength Checker

 

Chapter: 271 (DBZ 77), P7.4
Context: the Great Elder has his hand on Gohan’s head, sensing his hidden power.
Great Elder: “This is incredible… You have tremendous latent power… You are not an Earthling, are you…?”

I think it's already made apparent that Gohan possessed greater dormant power/ability than Krillin. There's a misconception that Guru's ability unlocks dormant power all at once like the Elder Kaioshin's, when according to the Daizenshuu, it only "triggers the drawing out of that person's dormant power". Gohan was at a stage where he wasn't fully adept at drawing out his true power without an emotional stimulus.

From Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 entry:

Daizenshuu 2 "Growing Up"

 

That Gohan was able to reach this stage earlier than Goku proves how high his dormant power is.